[Numpy-discussion] float128 in fact float80

Charles R Harris charlesr.harris@gmail....
Sun Oct 16 20:22:29 CDT 2011


On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 6:13 PM, Nathaniel Smith <njs@pobox.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Charles R Harris
> <charlesr.harris@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Nathaniel Smith <njs@pobox.com> wrote:
> >> I understand the argument that you don't want to call it "float80"
> >> because not all machines support a float80 type. But I don't
> >> understand why we would solve that problem by making up two *more*
> >> names (float96, float128) that describe types that *no* machines
> >> actually support... this is incredibly confusing.
> >
> > Well, float128 and float96 aren't interchangeable across architectures
> > because of the different alignments, C long double isn't portable either,
> > and float80 doesn't seem to be available anywhere. What concerns me is
> the
> > difference between extended and quad precision, both of which can occupy
> 128
> > bits. I've complained about that for several years now, but as to
> extended
> > precision, just don't use it. It will never be portable.
>
> I think part of the confusion here is about when a type is named like
> 'float<N>', does 'N' refer to the size of the data or to the minimum
> alignment? I have a strong intuition that it should be the former, and
> I assume Matthew does too. If we have a data structure like
>  struct { uint8_t flags; void * data; }
>

We need both in theory, in practice floats and doubles are pretty well
defined these days, but long doubles depend on architecture and compiler for
alignment, and even for representation in the case of PPC. I don't regard
these facts as obscure if one is familiar with floating point, but most
folks aren't and I agree that it can be misleading if one assumes that types
and storage space are strongly coupled. This also ties in to the problem
with ints and longs, which may both be int32 despite having different C
names.


> then 'flags' will actually get 32 or 64 bits of space... but we would
> never, ever refer to it as a uint32 or a uint64! I know these extended
> precision types are even weirder because the compiler will insert that
> padding unconditionally, but the intuition still stands, and obviously
> some proportion of the userbase will share it.
>
> If our API makes smart people like Matthew spend a week going around
> in circles, then our API is dangerously broken!
>
>
I think "dangerously" is a bit overly dramatic.


> The solution is just to call it 'longdouble', which clearly
> communicates 'this does some quirky thing that depends on your C
> compiler and architecture'.
>
>
Well, I don't know. If someone is unfamiliar with floats I would expect they
would post a complaint about bugs if a file of longdouble type written on a
32 bit system couldn't be read on a 64 bit system. It might be better to
somehow combine both the ieee type and the storage alignment.

Chuck
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