[SciPy-User] Least-squares fittings with bounds: why is scipy not up to the task?

Matthew Newville matt.newville@gmail....
Thu Mar 8 18:55:49 CST 2012


Gael,

On Thursday, March 8, 2012 3:07:22 PM UTC-6, Gael Varoquaux wrote:
>
>   I am sorry I am going to react to the provocation.

And I am sorry that I am going to react to your message.  I think your 
reaction is unfair.

>   As some one who spends a fair amount of time working on open source
>   software I hear such remarks quite often: 'why is feature foo not
>   implemented in package bar?. I am finding it harder and harder not to
>   react negatively to these emails. Now I cannot consider myself as a
>   contributor to scipy, and thus I can claim that I am not taking your
>   comment personally.

Where I work (a large scientific user facility), there are lots of 
scientists in what I'll presume is Eric's position -- able and willing to 
work well with scientific programming tools, but unable to devote the extra 
time needed to develop core functionality or maintain much work outside of 
their own area of interest.  There are a great many scientists interested 
in learning and using python.  Several people there *are* writing 
scientific libraries with python.  Similarly in the fields I work in, 
python is widely accepted as an important ecosystem.

>   Why isn't scipy not up to the task? Will, the answer is quite simple:
>   because it's developed by volunteers that do it on their spare time, 
late
>   at night too often, or companies that put some of their benefits in open
>   source rather in locking down a market. 90% of the time the reason the
>   feature isn't as good as you would want it is because of lack of time.
>
>   I personally find that suggesting that somebody else should put more of
>   the time and money they are already giving away in improving a feature
>   that you need is almost insulting.

Well, in some sense, Eric's message is an expression of interest.... 
Perhaps you would prefer that nobody outside the core group of developers 
or mailing list subscribers asked for any new features or clarification of 
existing features.

>   I am aware that people do not realize how small the group of people that
>   develop and maintain their toys is. Borrowing from Fernando Perez's talk
>   at Euroscipy (http://www.euroscipy.org/file/6459?vid=download slide 80),
>   the number of people that do 90% of the grunt work to get the core
>   scientific Python ecosystem going is around two handfuls.

Well, Fernando's slides indicate there is a small group that dominates 
commits to the projects, then explains, at least partially, why that it 
is.  It is *NOT* because scientists expect this work to be done for them by 
volunteers who should just work harder.

There are very good reasons for people to not be involved.  The work is 
rarely funded, is generally a distraction from funded work, and hardly ever 
"counts" as scientific work.  That's all on top of being a scientist, not a 
programmer.  Now, if you'll allow me, I myself am one of the "lucky" 
scientific software developers, well-recognized in my own small community 
for open source analysis software, and also in a scientific position and in 
a group where building tools for better data collection and analysis can 
easily be interpreted as part of the job.  In fact, I spend a very 
significant amount of my time writing open source software, and work nearly 
exclusively in python.

So, just as as an example of what happens when someone might "contribute",  
I wrote some code (lmfit-py) that could go into scipy and posted it to this 
list several months ago.  Many people have expressed interest in this 
module, and it has been discussed on this list a few times in the past few 
months.  Though lmfit-py is older than Fernando's slides (it was inspired 
after being asked several times "Is there something like IDL's mpfit, only 
faster and in python?"), it actually follows his directions of "get 
involved" quite closely: it is BSD, at github, with decent documentation, 
and does not depend on packages other than scipy and numpy.   Though it's 
been discussed on this list recently, two responses from frequent 
mailing-list responders (you, Paul V) was more along the lines of  "yes, 
that could be done, in principle, if someone were up to doing the work" 
instead of "perhaps package xxx would work for you".  

At no point has anyone from the scipy team expressed an interest in putting 
this into scipy.  OK, perhaps lmfit-py is not high enough quality.  I can 
accept that.  My point is that there *is* a contribution but one that would 
not show up on Fernando's graph as a lengthening of "the tail of 
contributors". There ARE a few developers out there who are interested in 
making contributions, and the scipy team is not doing everything it could 
be doing to either facilitate or even encourage such participation.  In 
fact, especially given your response, it would be possible to conclude that 
contributions are actually discouraged.  It's also possible to be more 
optimistic, and conclude that Fernando's statistics are accurate only for 
each project shown, but wildly underestimate the whole of the community.

>  I'd like to think that it's a problem of skill set: users that have the
>  ability to contribute are just too rare. This is not entirely true, there
>  are scores of skilled people on the mailing lists. You yourself mention
>  that you are developing a package.

There are many kinds of skills.  Sometimes, not insulting your customers, 
colleagues, and potential collaborators is the most important one.

>  Sorry for the rant, but if you want things to improve, you will have more
>  successes sending in pull request than messages on mailing list that
>  sound condescending to my ears.
>
>  I hope that I haven't overreacted too badly.

Sorry, but I think you have.  I'm impressed that Eric was appreciative -- I 
know many who would not be.

For myself, I find it quite discouraging that the scipy team is so insular.
Cheers,

--Matt Newville
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